Transcript: Interview with Mayor Darcy Byrne on pokies reform

TOM MCILROY:
Well, Darcy Byrne, welcome to the podcast.

DARCY BYRNE:
Thanks very much for having me on.

TOM MCILROY:
It's great to have you. We’ll get to your motion at the New South Wales Labor Conference in a moment and the pokies reforms. But let's start with a foundational question. Tell me why this is an important issue for you. Why has tackling gambling harm bubbled up in your career now?

DARCY BYRNE:
It's important to understand that the poker machine problem in New South Wales is getting worse. We are the world champions of poker machine prevalence. There are more machines in New South Wales than in any jurisdiction on Earth. Macau and Las Vegas have more, but they're contained within casinos. We are the only place where they're freely available on every corner.

TOM MCILROY:
It's actually quite incredible when you think of it like that, isn't it?

DARCY BYRNE:
It's really stark. In addition to that, we're up to $9.3 billion in losses this year. That's likely to be over $10 billion next year. The overwhelming majority of the losses and the harm are happening is in working-class communities and low-income families, particularly in south-west Sydney. These are the people that the Labor Party exists to represent.

Because of the extraordinary prevalence of poker machines, everybody has one of those stories. Everybody knows a friend, a family member or a loved one who's been damaged or brought down by the pokies. That's why you consistently see in public opinion polls that there's a very large majority of people who want action taken on this.

For me personally, I'm not a wowser at all. Both of my parents were lifelong punters. They liked betting on the horses. They would do the form and then bet every Saturday. It was only after my dad suffered brain damage that he started playing the poker machines. He would go into the pub on pension day and sit there tapping that button until all his pension was gone.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in New South Wales who've had that experience. I thought it was obvious that this was an issue that was going to have to be addressed during the upcoming New South Wales election. It was a central issue in the previous election campaign, and it would be much better for Labor to get on the front foot and address this for what it is: a social justice issue.

And have a position that we could all get behind. I think that's what we've now achieved.

TOM MCILROY:
There's a couple of interesting concepts here. Talking about social justice can be challenging for some people in the political space, depending on their position on the spectrum. But I'm interested in picking up on the local element.

Usually on this podcast we'd speak to a federal government minister or someone like that. As a local mayor, though, you're seeing it in your community, among the people you're talking to every day, the people that you represent, just the same as the Premier or the Prime Minister represents. 

DARCY BYRNE:
In the Inner West local government area, losses from poker machines in the last quarter were about $42 million. That's nowhere near the scale of say Fairfield, Canterbury-Bankstown or Blacktown, but it's still very significant harm.

It's important to note that in Fairfield and Canterbury-Bankstown in particular, losses are likely to exceed $1 billion annually in each municipality in the near future, which is really quite obscene.

I think every local representative in New South Wales whether local, state or federal should be aware of this problem. Everyone acknowledges the problem, but it's a problem that no one has been willing to solve until now.

What we really need is to bring the whole of the New South Wales Parliament together because this should be an issue that's above politics, and to make something stick, to get genuine reform through that will be embedded and last over the long term.

TOM MCILROY:
You wrote for Guardian Australia in an opinion piece last weekend about the interaction between the gambling lobby and the National Rifle Association, the pro-gun group in the United States. Tell us about the origin of that comparison and the history that underlines that.

DARCY BYRNE:
There's a long history of ClubsNSW and Clubs Australia in particular – but also the poker machine lobby generally – being incredibly brutal in their tactics, trying to intimidate or coerce politicians out of addressing this issue while confusing the public.

It is comparable to the tactics used by the National Rifle Association.

In fact, I'd forgotten this, but after I published that article it was pointed out to me that some lobbyists from ClubsNSW or Clubs Australia had actually gone to a training course in America hosted by the National Rifle Association.

This practice of taking aim at any leader or politician who puts their head above the parapet to intimidate them has warped our politics and prevented a rational debate about how we put guardrails around poker machines to minimise harm.

The same playbook is rolled out every time. It's a fear campaign about job losses, venues closing and community sport being unfunded. These are all issues that can be worked through in a transition.

But we can't do that if our body politic continues to look away from the issue or sweep it under the rug.

TOM MCILROY:
That brings us to last weekend at the conference. Explain the proposal and, if you would, give our listeners a sense of how a motion at a New South Wales Labor Conference filters up into political decision-making.

DARCY BYRNE:
After the last state election, a number of activists within the Labor Party at a grassroots level began working to improve our position regarding poker machines and gambling harm.

Often, the way it works within our party is that people have to work away for years to get traction on an issue and build sufficient support for it.

Mark Morey, the Secretary of Unions NSW, set up a Labor for Gambling Reform group not long after the last election. There has been a growing recognition across our party that this has gone on too long and that we have to take action to turn it around.

By the time we got to this conference, the annual conference being the party's supreme decision-making body, it was clear that the issue had gained significant support. The conference adopts a platform that the government, or the Labor opposition if we're not in government, then seeks to carry out.

Now they have leeway and discretion about how they do it, but the platform is our supreme policy document. This is the last conference before the next New South Wales election, so it was the proper time to bring forward proposals about how we could improve our policy position.

A number of different proposals came forward.

What has also occurred in recent weeks is that the government has been seriously thinking about this issue and engaging respectfully with advocates from across the board, including outside the party – people like Wesley Mission and the NSW Council of Social Service, who have worked hard to keep this issue alive.

I think we've come to a point where our whole party recognised, through a unanimous resolution on the conference floor – which isn't easy to achieve – that the time has come to address this issue.

We can't allow the problem to continue to fester and spread. Given the prevalence of the machines, it is actually getting worse. The status quo is not static. The status quo means we'll continue to see even greater losses and addiction in the future.

One other important point is that when it comes to gambling harm, the overwhelming problem is the pokies. About two-thirds of people in New South Wales who seek help from counselling services for gambling addiction are there because of the pokies.

The second-highest category is lotteries. So, it really is at the centre of the gambling harm problem.

I think there's a broad consensus in the New South Wales community that enough is enough.

TOM MCILROY:
The proposal was for a halving of the number of pokies in the state over a decade. There was a bit of negotiation around that. Tell me what the final result is and what it could mean if the state parliamentary party adopts it as policy for the next election.

DARCY BYRNE:
The resolution is actually quite systematic. There are about 14 points in it.

Some of the main features are a commitment to significantly reducing the number of machines over the next 10 years. The number is not specified, but that's a matter for consideration by the government and ongoing advocacy. There is also a review of operating hours and whether there should be a reduction. What the social justice sector has been advocating for is turning the machines off at midnight.

A lot of the harm is done after midnight.

In addition to that, there is a whole range of evidence-based harm reduction measures that have come from academics and people who have been analysing the problem.

Importantly, in addition to that, a new program to support pubs and clubs that want to lower their dependence on poker machine revenue. This would provide direct assistance for them to diversify their offerings in hospitality, live entertainment and community events.

We already have lots of examples of clubs and pubs doing this across Sydney, and that's a really important element of this.

We won't win this argument if we're coming at it from a position of being anti-venue. People love their pubs and clubs. I do. In my area, we spend a lot of time trying to cultivate our nighttime activity. We want more artistic and cultural activity in venues. So we're not coming at it from a perspective of moralism or being anti-venues.We want venues to have a brighter future in which, over time – it won't happen overnight – but over the next decade, we help as many venues as possible transition away from this business model because there is a better way that does less harm to the communities that they serve.

TOM MCILROY:
Now, I'm eager to ask you about the summit that's coming up in Sydney and your work with the Council of Social Service and Wesley Mission. But before that, let me ask one more politics question.

Do you think good policy here could be good politics for the Minns government ahead of the next election? The power of the pokies lobby,  this particular societal problem have been a political challeng in the past for Labor.

DARCY BYRNE:
I think Chris Minns is the best communicator in New South Wales politics since Bob Carr.

The advocacy of the government, the work of the government on housing has been both exemplary and groundbreaking. It's been an important cause that the Minns Government has taken up, and what we're trying to do is create space for reducing poker machine harm to become another cause the government can advocate for.

I'm absolutely convinced – and the published polling shows this repeatedly and consistently – that there is a very large majority of citizens in this state who believe something must be done to reduce harm when it comes to poker machines.

It crosses political barriers. Your position on this issue isn't really determined by whether you vote for one party or another.

That's why I say it would be a very good thing if the whole Parliament could come together. The Liberals may be more difficult with the Nationals, but there’s a lot of independents in the New South Wales Parliament who have been advocating on this issue for a long time.

If we can reach a consensus around sensible policy reforms that make a meaningful difference, that also reduces the ability of the poker machine lobby to target individual politicians and threaten their seats in Parliament.

If it’s all of us coming together to create societal change, that's a stronger position.

TOM MCILROY:
On that societal change, as I mentioned, you're bringing together experts for the summit on 16 July. Tell us about that. It’s about adding momentum and hearing the lived experience of gambling harm?

DARCY BYRNE:
That's right.

We've got an event at Marrickville Town Hall next Thursday 16 July at 6.30pm: the Sydney Summit on Poker Machine Harm.

One feature of this debate is that there has been a growing chorus from civil society calling for action and change. That includes churches, trade unions, the not-for-profit sector and businesses as well.

I think there's a broad recognition that this is a problem that has festered for far too long.

We're trying to bring together all of those different sections of civil society both to address the issue and, given the significant progress at the New South Wales Labor Conference last weekend, this will now be in a very positive setting  because we are able to talk about the change which has been instigated and how we can build on that.

We also want to build the broadest possible coalition to continue pushing for action on poker machine harm because we know what the likely response will be from the poker machine lobby. We've seen it many times in the past. We know the playbook.

Unfortunately, they've been successful every time until now.

We need to be ready for that. This is going to be a fairly central issue in the next New South Wales election campaign, and we need to make sure it results in an outcome that creates genuine change.

TOM MCILROY:
Give me your impressions of the federal piece of this puzzle.

At the same time, the Albanese Government is working on online gambling advertising restrictions and trying to reduce some of the harm that growing sector can cause in our community.

What are your thoughts on where the government is heading? It's now been several years since the Murphy Report, and it must be said the government has attracted some criticism, perhaps for not being bold enough.

DARCY BYRNE:
Firstly, I'll say that I'm not an expert on online gambling and sports betting.

I'm obviously aware of the debate, but I've been focused on achieving poker machine reform in New South Wales.

What the government has put forward is a systematic response. The legislation that they’ve got is not one element, it's a range of elements designed to have a combined effect in reducing harm.

That's what's been missing when it comes to poker machines in New South Wales. There has never been a systematic effort to reduce their prevalence or the harm they cause.

So it's a good thing that legislation is before the Parliament.

The legislation may not be perfect, but we know with big societal changes like this that sometimes it has to happen in stages.

I struggle to understand why it would be a better outcome to have the legislation go down, as seems to be threatened, why that would  be an improvement

At the moment, online gambling isn't properly regulated. The previous government was in office for 10 years while the sector was taking off and didn't take significant action.

Now we have legislation from the government that perhaps could be strengthened or amended, but it's important that it is legislated and then reviewed in the future.

It certainly won't help reduce gambling harm if no legislation is passed at all.

TOM MCILROY:
What's your sense of the politics among Labor members and the rank and file? Do you think they're on board with what the federal government is doing, or would they like to see broader changes?

DARCY BYRNE:
There will certainly be people at the ALP National Conference who would like to see the government go further.

Broadly speaking, though, I think there is support for the fact that the government has brought forward legislation.

I'll say one thing: I think Peta Murphy was a fantastic person. She wasn't someone I knew directly, but I know many people who had the utmost respect for her.

I don't think it's particularly helpful when non-Labor political actors constantly invoke Peta's name in criticism of the government. I understand why that's happening, but it would be good if we could remove some of the vitriol from this debate.

I've seen some of the opposition speeches in Parliament against the legislation, and they've been quite vitriolic.

That's not going to help.

The government has put forward their position. If amendments are needed, then tit’s good to advocate for those. but I urge people to shy away from playing the man rather than the ball. The matter will be debated at the National Conference, but I don't expect there to be a direction from the conference about legislation that's already before Parliament.

TOM MCILROY:
Anthony Albanese has said he's not against someone having a punt on the weekend, and you've made a similar point.

Members of my family enjoy a bet on the horses – my dad is a form-guide studier, much like yours.

Are we at a tipping point about our cultural relationship with gambling more broadly? Is there a change happening because of how ingrained gambling has become?

DARCY BYRNE:
It's an interesting question.

Speaking from a Labor perspective, we have to be careful in how we talk about these issues because one thing that has always been unsuccessful is when the Labor Party appearing to talk down to our own voters, judge their behaviour or seek to control their behaviour.

What we're discussing here is what governments can do to improve protections and harm minimisation around gambling.

What was really damaging for Labor when Andrew Wilkie's reform was proposed – and the Gillard Government committed to $1 bet limits and pre-commitment measures – I can't remember every detail of the policy, but that campaign that was run by the poker machine lobby was extraordinarily damaging to the government because our opponents were speaking directly to our own voters in a very negative way.

They were able to depict it as: "Labor is trying to tax your fun. Labor is trying to control your behaviour."

They framed it as wowserism or moralism, and it was very damaging for us.

So there are really two separate questions.

One is whether Australians should move away from our engagement with gambling, which is widespread and has been for a very long time.

The other is whether governments can do more to reduce gambling harm.

As I said, I don't have any problem with people having a punt. My family members have always done that.

What I find objectionable is when the private interests of the gambling lobby is trumping the  public interest in reducing addiction and harm.

That's been happening for too long.

TOM MCILROY:
I'd like to ask another question, separate from gambling.

As we've discussed, you're a local mayor, and you're clearly closely engaged with people at other levels of decision making in the state and across the country.

Is this a model that could be used more often – issues at the community level bubbling up into broader politics, different sections of government grabbing on to important things and making the case up and down the system.

DARCY BYRNE:
That's an interesting point.

One of the benefits of being a mayor is that everybody understands that while you may be a member of a political party, your primary duty is to stand up for your community.

In many areas of local government across Australia, people don't run under party banners. Sydney is a little different, but the principle remains the same.

If you come into conflict with your own party's position and it's a direct contradiction, you need to stand up for your community first.

That's one of the things people like about local government. It's the level of government closest to the people. You can't avoid engaging with your constituents and residents on any given issue.

That's a good thing, and I think we would benefit from more of it.

The Labor Party already has mechanisms through its annual conferences – large public political events that have existed for more than a century – which allow activists, branches and representatives to bring forward policy ideas and campaign for them to be adopted into the platform.

I'm trying to make use of that process as much as possible.

I'll give you an example.

In 2018, I think it was, I took a motion to the ALP National Conference proposing that we should seek to establish an NRL team in Papua New Guinea as a foreign policy initiative.

I've always felt that we don't talk anywhere nearly enough about Papua New Guinea. It’s a former colony of Australia.

We don't even know how many people live there now, because conducting an accurate census is difficult, but it's well over 10 million people maybe 15 million.

They're our closest neighbours Enduring, you know, sub-Saharan conditions of poverty in many cases, and it’s an incredibly diverse society with over 800 language groups, and they love rugby league

When I stood up to move the amendment, a few people laughed.

But Richard Marles stood up and second it. He said he'd spent a lot of time in Papua New Guinea and that the three biggest days of the year there were State of Origin I, State of Origin II and State of Origin III.

The fact that this is now coming to fruition is a good example of how party processes can work to allow new ideas to emerge from the bottom up.

I'm not claiming credit for what’s happening now, but I do think it's fantastic to see how that idea has progressed.

I think it will be genuinely transformational for the relationship between out peoples. 

TOM MCILROY:
I won't name names, but there are ministers in the building I'm speaking from who can't walk down the hallway without trying to tell you about the $600 million deal to get this NRL team up in PNG. They're so excited about it.

One last question on politics.

You're often described as someone who could move into the federal sphere one day, potentially in the Sydney seat of Grayndler, which is in your local area.

How do you deal with that? Is that the case? Would you be looking for a transition from the current occupant, the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese?DARCY BYRNE
If you'd told 16-year-old me that I would one day be Mayor of the Inner West, it would have seemed a pretty unlikely story.

I love the job I have. It's a fantastic role. I take it seriously, and I feel a strong responsibility to deliver for the local community.

I also feel a great sense of loyalty to Anthony Albanese, whom I've known for a long time and worked for during a period of my career.

The federal government currently holds 94 seats in the House of Representatives, and we'll need to gear up for a contest at the next election, which looks like it will be with the hard right, One Nation.The goal will be for them to extend their 94 seats and get higher.

That's my primary concern when it comes to federal politics.

If an opportunity arose in the future, I'd consider it. But I want to avoid being one of those people who sees politics purely as a pathway to a particular career goal.

There's so much luck involved.

Often, when it doesn’t work out for them, they leave politics feeling bitter.

I consider the work I do a real privilege. I don't want to be bitter. I want to remain positive and fulfilled.

TOM MCILROY:
We've talked a lot about your work. Our traditional final question on the podcast is about life away from work.

Tell me about some of your personal interests. How do you relax when you're off the clock?

DARCY BYRNE:
I try to make as much time as possible for reading.

That's difficult in politics because it's a 24/7 vocation if you're doing it properly. There's also a lot of technical reading involved in policy development, meeting preparation and similar work.

But I don't think you can develop as a political representative if you don't continue reading broadly.

I try to structure my time so that, particularly through audiobooks, I'm always learning. Whether I'm doing housework, walking – which I do a lot because I find it good cognitive exercise as well as physical health   – or driving, I try to listen to an audiobook.

And not just books directly related to local issues or current debates.

For example, I recently finished what I think is the authoritative history of the Algerian War of Independence by Alistair Horne. It was incredibly interesting and still highly relevant when you consider how the far right in France are now on the verge of coming to power and where they came from originally.

I also recently read Liam Byrne's book about why populists are winning and how they can be defeated. He's a Labour MP in Britain.

I try to read as broadly as possible.

I don't read as many novels as I'd like to, but I think reading is an essential part of being a political representative.

It's one of the few occupations where there is effectively no professional development program.

People can be elected to very high office and immediately be expected to perform at that level.

There's no formal training program.

So you have to maintain a commitment to lifelong learning and development if you want to get better at the job.

TOM MCILROY:
Well, it's been great talking about these issues and hearing about your reading as well.

Darcy Byrne, thanks for making the time. It's been great having you on the podcast.

DARCY BYRNE:
Thanks so much for the opportunity.